WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:16.160 Howdy, this is Markdown plus Git for collaborative writing on August 24th, 2023. 00:00:16.160 --> 00:00:19.040 There's a HackMD, I think maybe you can see the HackMD link in the chat. 00:00:19.040 --> 00:00:21.160 You've probably also got it in email. 00:00:21.160 --> 00:00:27.920 The YouTube link in chat is to the last session. 00:00:27.920 --> 00:00:32.280 And we're kind of scheduled for an hour today to the top of the hour. 00:00:32.280 --> 00:00:38.040 And so depending on how many people show up, we might actually get more done, I guess. 00:00:38.040 --> 00:00:45.560 But the main thing is to figure out who's going to keep meeting, like, and what are 00:00:45.560 --> 00:00:50.760 those meetings going to be like? 00:00:50.760 --> 00:00:54.020 And why we would be meeting. 00:00:54.020 --> 00:01:06.180 So I think the best reason to keep meeting is either to be learning Git and Markdown 00:01:06.180 --> 00:01:13.380 or maybe even better to be learning Git and Markdown on a collaborative project. 00:01:13.380 --> 00:01:20.260 Maybe a little toy project to start off with, one that we can work on without stressing 00:01:20.260 --> 00:01:26.620 too much about what the content is and then end up with something that we might be able 00:01:26.620 --> 00:01:27.900 to turn it into something useful. 00:01:27.900 --> 00:01:41.440 We might kind of just put it on the shelf and go, "Okay, that was a lot of fun." 00:01:41.440 --> 00:01:47.820 Another good outcome after that practice of doing something together would be to kind 00:01:47.820 --> 00:01:54.180 of review recap after action review where we got to. 00:01:54.180 --> 00:02:06.500 Howdy, Kiel, is that how am I gonna unmute? Hi, it's Kyle. Good morning. Hi Kyle, good 00:02:06.500 --> 00:02:16.940 morning. Hi Kyle. Good morning. So just to recap real quick, I would be happy if we 00:02:16.940 --> 00:02:22.600 got out of this call, kind of knowing who's going to continue doing this call and why 00:02:22.600 --> 00:02:30.560 and how, basically. So maybe we should go around and talk about what we would like to 00:02:30.560 --> 00:02:36.920 get out of this exercise, these exercises. Ray, I'm going to pick on you and have you 00:02:36.920 --> 00:02:41.640 go first if that's okay, because you kind of kicked this off, and I know that you've 00:02:41.640 --> 00:02:48.040 got stuff that you want to get done and maybe get in Markdown as a tool to do it. 00:02:48.040 --> 00:03:00.480 Yes. So thank you. So what interested me in this is the collaborative aspect of it, which 00:03:00.480 --> 00:03:11.440 comes in, I guess, two versions. One is that it's a good way to share thoughts that I have 00:03:11.440 --> 00:03:18.000 for the beginnings of a white paper that some people have read it and decided that it was 00:03:18.000 --> 00:03:25.560 really dense and difficult and they had to read it a few times to understand. 00:03:25.560 --> 00:03:33.640 So I want people to actually help write it, to give people to better understand it and 00:03:33.640 --> 00:03:39.280 also have contributors to shape the ideas and improve it. 00:03:39.280 --> 00:03:48.480 related to this same project, it's going to make sense to put together a deck. 00:03:48.480 --> 00:03:54.520 And I, although you've cautioned against this, what I really would like to do is see people 00:03:54.520 --> 00:04:03.080 collaborate with trying to do the skeleton of a deck in Markdown as well before moving 00:04:03.080 --> 00:04:08.000 into some sort of final format for the output 00:04:08.000 --> 00:04:11.640 to actually be able to deliver a presentation. 00:04:11.640 --> 00:04:15.160 I have a third motivation beyond that, 00:04:15.160 --> 00:04:20.160 which is that although in the past I've written code, 00:04:20.160 --> 00:04:24.040 it stopped quite a while ago. 00:04:24.040 --> 00:04:29.040 And so I've never worked with Git at all. 00:04:30.600 --> 00:04:33.760 It just wasn't part of my experience. 00:04:33.760 --> 00:04:38.160 And so for me to understand the workflows 00:04:38.160 --> 00:04:43.160 would remove another thing from me being able to jump in 00:04:43.160 --> 00:04:46.680 and actually contribute to code 00:04:46.680 --> 00:04:48.540 because I would know that practice. 00:04:48.540 --> 00:04:54.000 Think you're muted. 00:04:54.000 --> 00:04:56.600 - Yes, I am. 00:04:56.600 --> 00:04:57.420 Thanks, Ray. 00:05:00.280 --> 00:05:11.920 I am going to share my screen and let's say I'm recording already. 00:05:11.920 --> 00:05:13.420 It's recording in this tab. 00:05:13.420 --> 00:05:23.920 I'm going to share my screen on the markdown thing and then in my Jitsi tab I've got to 00:05:23.920 --> 00:05:28.480 to make sure to select the screen share. 00:05:28.480 --> 00:05:30.680 Otherwise, it won't record very well. 00:05:30.680 --> 00:05:32.440 I'm not convinced this is recording well, 00:05:32.440 --> 00:05:34.120 but it's a little better than nothing. 00:05:34.120 --> 00:05:35.440 OK, I think it's kind of set. 00:05:35.440 --> 00:05:40.680 Thanks for bearing with me in Jitsi 00:05:40.680 --> 00:05:43.000 and recording and screen sharing. 00:05:43.000 --> 00:05:49.840 So line 19, in a more perfect world, 00:05:49.840 --> 00:05:55.840 we would have kind of collectively grabbed Ray's nicely 00:05:55.840 --> 00:05:57.400 set up points there. 00:05:57.400 --> 00:06:00.040 Let's go back and do it together. 00:06:00.040 --> 00:06:11.280 So Ray wants to expand from single-player writing 00:06:11.280 --> 00:06:12.440 to multiplayer. 00:06:16.960 --> 00:06:23.840 Ray and I guess everybody, one of the ways that we say collaborative writing is to call 00:06:23.840 --> 00:06:28.560 it multiplayer. 00:06:28.560 --> 00:06:48.760 And part of the reason is to express ideas better for a wider audience. 00:06:48.760 --> 00:06:55.120 And then another thing, I feel like there was, Rafe, if you could help me a little bit, 00:06:55.120 --> 00:06:57.200 The next thing was working on a particular project. 00:06:57.200 --> 00:06:58.040 Was that it? 00:06:58.040 --> 00:07:01.040 - Yes, but even before that, 00:07:01.040 --> 00:07:03.760 to express the ideas better, 00:07:03.760 --> 00:07:08.760 I would say to possibly to add ideas from others. 00:07:08.760 --> 00:07:23.360 - I'm gonna say more people instead of others, 00:07:23.360 --> 00:07:24.200 if that's okay. 00:07:24.200 --> 00:07:32.200 And I'm going to make a temporary line here and then I'm going to put your last thing, which I also remember. 00:07:49.200 --> 00:07:54.800 So then I feel like line 22, you had a specific project you were kind of in mind. 00:07:54.800 --> 00:07:57.200 You didn't really talk about it much, but I think that's kind of what... 00:07:57.200 --> 00:08:01.760 I heard that. Maybe I'm wrong. 00:08:01.760 --> 00:08:06.480 Yes. So I have a specific project in mind and I'm interested in 00:08:06.480 --> 00:08:14.160 doing multiplayer writing around both the white paper and the presentation for it. 00:08:14.960 --> 00:08:18.960 Yep. 00:08:18.960 --> 00:08:25.960 Okay. Thanks for that. I'm going to go ahead and close this out. I'm going to go ahead 00:08:25.960 --> 00:08:48.240 Okay. 00:08:48.240 --> 00:08:49.240 Thanks for that. 00:08:49.240 --> 00:08:50.240 Who wants to go next? 00:08:50.240 --> 00:08:52.240 Who wants to go next? 00:08:52.240 --> 00:08:54.240 I'll go. 00:08:54.240 --> 00:08:56.240 Thanks, Kyle. 00:08:56.240 --> 00:09:04.240 So Ray invited me to learn more about this, which I found interesting and exciting. 00:09:04.240 --> 00:09:08.240 My background is in technology since the 80s, so I've always worked with developers. 00:09:08.240 --> 00:09:16.240 And then in the 90s, I had a software publishing company, publishing games, utilities, lifestyle software. 00:09:16.240 --> 00:09:21.520 and then I had an interactive agency, and I've worked in recent years a lot for big 00:09:21.520 --> 00:09:27.960 technology companies and in between a lot of other stuff, FinTech, a lot of SaaS platform, 00:09:27.960 --> 00:09:31.320 and worked closely with developers most of my career. 00:09:31.320 --> 00:09:35.600 So anything that gets me to understand better the way that they work and to be able to work 00:09:35.600 --> 00:09:43.560 through more dynamically with them in those flows is interesting to me. 00:09:43.560 --> 00:09:51.320 When I was with Palo Alto Networks last year, I was working a lot on code to cloud marketing 00:09:51.320 --> 00:09:52.320 strategy. 00:09:52.320 --> 00:09:58.160 So, you know, GitHub is a big place where problems occur there. 00:09:58.160 --> 00:10:02.400 So Git is top of mind for me. 00:10:02.400 --> 00:10:11.320 And I'm currently working on a SaaS platform ag tech project within an agency. 00:10:11.320 --> 00:10:13.800 And so I'm working again with developers. 00:10:13.800 --> 00:10:19.800 So it just seems to make sense to me, along with the training I'm doing for 00:10:19.800 --> 00:10:26.160 chat GPT, I think this type of thinking aligns really well with learning, 00:10:26.160 --> 00:10:30.160 prompting, and all kinds of things, including learning to code, 00:10:30.160 --> 00:10:34.320 which is the next step in chat GPT. 00:10:34.320 --> 00:10:38.760 So I don't know how to summarize that more, but 00:10:38.760 --> 00:10:44.760 So there's a lot of things that align and are interesting to me about this. 00:10:44.760 --> 00:10:49.760 From that perspective. 00:10:49.760 --> 00:10:59.760 I especially noticed when I worked for these big tech companies, instead of directly for smaller startups where I would meet with the development team, 00:10:59.760 --> 00:11:05.760 which is often dozens of programmers, on how a product works or how a platform works. 00:11:05.760 --> 00:11:08.120 The bigger companies, you get really siloed. 00:11:08.120 --> 00:11:12.280 So anything that helps me better understand the developer side, 00:11:12.280 --> 00:11:13.640 I think, is really powerful. 00:11:13.640 --> 00:11:23.640 Cool. 00:11:23.640 --> 00:11:29.920 So line 25 through 29, does that kind of capture pretty well? 00:11:29.920 --> 00:11:31.680 Yes, thank you. 00:11:31.680 --> 00:11:32.680 Great. 00:11:32.680 --> 00:11:42.960 And I especially like what's on line 29 that you've got. 00:11:42.960 --> 00:11:47.640 I think I'm teaching people how to use Chat GPT. 00:11:47.640 --> 00:11:49.920 And one of the observations I've got 00:11:49.920 --> 00:11:55.880 is that working with Chat GPT is kind of a low impact way 00:11:55.880 --> 00:12:00.960 to learn how to think through how to explain something 00:12:00.960 --> 00:12:04.420 and how to ask people something better. 00:12:04.420 --> 00:12:09.080 You have a bot that's infinitely patient 00:12:09.080 --> 00:12:11.720 and reasonably conversational 00:12:11.720 --> 00:12:14.800 and you get a lot of practice. 00:12:14.800 --> 00:12:18.560 And, okay, I'm trying to communicate something. 00:12:18.560 --> 00:12:20.160 How can I break it down in a way 00:12:20.160 --> 00:12:22.280 that gets the response I want? 00:12:22.280 --> 00:12:25.140 And it's just a robot response 00:12:25.140 --> 00:12:27.780 and it's either makes you happy or sad 00:12:27.780 --> 00:12:29.280 that it's like, oh, well, 00:12:29.280 --> 00:12:30.600 I didn't ask the question very well 00:12:30.600 --> 00:12:34.240 It gave me an answer, a very interesting answer, but that's not the question I wanted. 00:12:34.240 --> 00:12:37.840 So I've learned that I ask questions much better. 00:12:37.840 --> 00:12:44.720 I had a doctor's appointment recently and I heard myself asking the questions after the session 00:12:44.720 --> 00:12:49.800 with the doctor, the questions I asked were very much informed by how well I have gotten, 00:12:49.800 --> 00:12:55.640 how much better I've gotten at asking questions and prompting, you know, people or bots. 00:12:55.640 --> 00:12:57.240 It's very interesting. 00:12:57.240 --> 00:13:02.240 And the other thing is, it's a, 00:13:02.240 --> 00:13:04.980 the other thing that I can, 00:13:04.980 --> 00:13:07.140 because I'm a developer and I know, 00:13:07.140 --> 00:13:11.320 I have a kind of a cheat code to what development is. 00:13:11.320 --> 00:13:16.320 It's pretty easy for me to go to chat2BT and get it to, 00:13:16.320 --> 00:13:20.160 it's actually really good at writing code. 00:13:20.160 --> 00:13:21.680 So I can go over and say, you know, 00:13:21.680 --> 00:13:22.840 write the code that does this, 00:13:22.840 --> 00:13:24.360 but I kind of know how to ask 00:13:24.360 --> 00:13:27.220 and I kind of know what to do with the code once it's done. 00:13:27.220 --> 00:13:32.460 So there's something where more people who will be using 00:13:32.460 --> 00:13:37.340 chat GPT and whatever comes afterwards, 00:13:37.340 --> 00:13:41.580 you kind of need the basics of how to code 00:13:41.580 --> 00:13:43.260 and how to work with code. 00:13:43.260 --> 00:13:46.260 Even if you don't really know how programming works, 00:13:46.260 --> 00:13:47.900 you kind of have to know what's reasonable 00:13:47.900 --> 00:13:49.740 and what you can ask and what you can't ask 00:13:49.740 --> 00:13:50.600 and things like that. 00:13:50.600 --> 00:13:53.860 So I really like that line 29, Kyle. 00:13:53.860 --> 00:14:02.140 By the way, while we're at learning about coding and stuff like that, I think it was 00:14:02.140 --> 00:14:04.380 Marvin Minsky back in the day. 00:14:04.380 --> 00:14:06.660 He worked a lot, or Simon Papert, maybe. 00:14:06.660 --> 00:14:11.460 They worked a lot on teaching. 00:14:11.460 --> 00:14:12.780 There's a couple parts of coding. 00:14:12.780 --> 00:14:17.340 One of them is boring learning of all the syntax and stuff like that. 00:14:17.340 --> 00:14:20.300 And that's kind of maybe the poster child often for coding. 00:14:20.300 --> 00:14:26.540 There's another thing which is breaking down problems into, you know, modules and being 00:14:26.540 --> 00:14:31.620 able to instruct like a turtle, a drawing turtle or something like that, how to get 00:14:31.620 --> 00:14:33.420 stuff done. 00:14:33.420 --> 00:14:41.340 Understanding how to algorithmize things is actually, I think, a literacy that we need 00:14:41.340 --> 00:14:42.340 more of. 00:14:42.340 --> 00:14:48.260 And ChatGPD opens up the ability to actually act on, you know, that kind of knowledge with 00:14:48.260 --> 00:15:00.260 a lot of force, a lot of capability. So, who's next? Butler, maybe? 00:15:00.260 --> 00:15:07.820 I'll go next. Sure. You want to go first? 00:15:07.820 --> 00:15:14.220 Yeah, I can go next. So, I'm tech savvy, but I'm not a coder and I'm not a developer, and 00:15:14.220 --> 00:15:18.580 I am less interested in this conversation and how this all gets done, 00:15:18.580 --> 00:15:21.780 then I've got some projects that want to use something like this maybe. 00:15:21.780 --> 00:15:24.920 So would that be appropriate to talk about? 00:15:24.920 --> 00:15:25.820 >> Yeah. 00:15:25.820 --> 00:15:33.380 >> I'm going to seriously resist getting into the tech conversations here. 00:15:33.380 --> 00:15:38.460 So let me just paste these in to the markdown. 00:15:38.460 --> 00:15:43.700 There's three classes of projects I'm looking at. 00:15:43.700 --> 00:15:47.580 They're going to just all go in at once, I guess. 00:15:47.580 --> 00:15:48.080 Yeah. 00:15:48.080 --> 00:15:48.660 That's real. 00:15:48.660 --> 00:15:49.420 Yeah. 00:15:49.420 --> 00:15:51.340 So one is co-writing, working with people 00:15:51.340 --> 00:15:54.800 on developing proposals for white papers together. 00:15:54.800 --> 00:15:58.380 We're doing that in Google Docs right now. 00:15:58.380 --> 00:16:00.700 What you all are talking about here is something better 00:16:00.700 --> 00:16:01.660 than Google Docs. 00:16:01.660 --> 00:16:02.380 Yes. 00:16:02.380 --> 00:16:03.820 That's number one. 00:16:03.820 --> 00:16:06.620 Number two, two books I'm trying to put together. 00:16:06.620 --> 00:16:10.540 One is a curated multi-author anthology. 00:16:10.540 --> 00:16:13.620 And the idea would be for people to post their chapters 00:16:13.620 --> 00:16:16.020 and then cross-comment on each other's chapters 00:16:16.020 --> 00:16:17.740 and possibly do that in the open, 00:16:17.740 --> 00:16:20.340 possibly behind a cloak to be revealed 00:16:20.340 --> 00:16:23.100 once it's at a certain level of knowledge. 00:16:23.100 --> 00:16:26.580 And the third is a book that I'm primary author of, 00:16:26.580 --> 00:16:29.420 but I'm thinking about doing it in the open, 00:16:29.420 --> 00:16:31.940 kind of serialized with comments and revisions 00:16:31.940 --> 00:16:34.580 within either tightly curated 00:16:34.580 --> 00:16:37.380 or wide open group of collaborators. 00:16:37.380 --> 00:16:41.060 So I'm curious about whether what's under discussion here 00:16:41.060 --> 00:16:44.540 provides appropriate platform for that. 00:16:44.540 --> 00:16:46.740 Participation by people who are not coders, 00:16:46.740 --> 00:16:49.420 who are just writers, thinkers, and want 00:16:49.420 --> 00:16:52.340 it as simple as possible in terms of workflows. 00:16:52.340 --> 00:16:54.220 Do not want to be able to look-- 00:16:54.220 --> 00:16:56.800 folks who don't need to open the hood and look at the engine, 00:16:56.800 --> 00:16:58.700 but just get in the car and drive somewhere. 00:16:58.700 --> 00:17:02.540 Thanks, Gil. 00:17:02.540 --> 00:17:03.460 That's great. 00:17:03.460 --> 00:17:06.380 Can we expand GTPR? 00:17:06.380 --> 00:17:07.100 Yeah, sure. 00:17:07.100 --> 00:17:11.660 These are-- this one is Getting the Prices Right. 00:17:11.660 --> 00:17:15.220 This is about what I see as a fundamental mess 00:17:15.220 --> 00:17:17.580 of the climate and environmental story, which is that the markets 00:17:17.580 --> 00:17:19.460 lie. 00:17:19.460 --> 00:17:21.660 And we don't pay the real prices of things. 00:17:21.660 --> 00:17:24.780 And so I've got an outline for-- 00:17:24.780 --> 00:17:28.140 it's like a 15-essay book that dives 00:17:28.140 --> 00:17:31.380 into the various aspects of that, both conceptually 00:17:31.380 --> 00:17:32.780 and policy and so forth. 00:17:36.100 --> 00:17:40.100 I'm ready for the next one. 00:17:40.100 --> 00:17:42.660 Excuse me, you kind of dropped out for me there. 00:17:42.660 --> 00:17:44.540 Yeah, tell me when you're ready for the next one. 00:17:44.540 --> 00:17:46.100 Next one, go for it. 00:17:46.100 --> 00:17:51.220 Yeah, so the SDSC is the structural defects 00:17:51.220 --> 00:17:54.860 of Capitalism, which is a hyphenated word. 00:17:54.860 --> 00:18:01.460 With a capital I, or-- 00:18:01.460 --> 00:18:02.940 No, I don't think so. 00:18:02.940 --> 00:18:04.820 I think just like that. 00:18:04.820 --> 00:18:06.580 I mean, maybe this, maybe, yeah. 00:18:06.580 --> 00:18:09.360 I mean, yeah, let's just leave it as that for now. 00:18:09.360 --> 00:18:15.740 So, do you want the summary of the book 00:18:15.740 --> 00:18:17.100 or you want to just leave it? 00:18:17.100 --> 00:18:18.180 - No, that's good. 00:18:18.180 --> 00:18:19.660 As long as we kind of know it's a book 00:18:19.660 --> 00:18:22.100 and maybe I guess a little bit the size of it 00:18:22.100 --> 00:18:23.300 or something like that. 00:18:23.300 --> 00:18:26.580 - Don't know the size of it yet. 00:18:26.580 --> 00:18:27.980 I'm building the outline. 00:18:27.980 --> 00:18:30.220 - Book is close enough. 00:18:30.220 --> 00:18:34.740 If it's a blog post, that's one thing. 00:18:34.740 --> 00:18:36.020 - No, it's not a blog post, it's a book. 00:18:36.020 --> 00:18:38.240 And put book in quotes, 00:18:38.240 --> 00:18:39.800 'cause the question I keep asking myself 00:18:39.800 --> 00:18:41.540 whenever I think of these things is, 00:18:41.540 --> 00:18:44.360 like book in quotes, but what if it's not a book? 00:18:44.360 --> 00:18:45.200 - Yeah. 00:18:45.200 --> 00:18:51.260 Let me put a note kind of down here at line 35. 00:18:51.260 --> 00:18:57.340 And yeah, I wanted to also note that anybody can, 00:18:57.340 --> 00:19:04.320 with the link in the chat, you can get to this thing. 00:19:04.320 --> 00:19:11.040 You don't have to sign in and then these buttons on the upper left control the view. 00:19:11.040 --> 00:19:18.960 The left two have the editing view on the side here. 00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:25.680 Real quick, I wanted to take off on your book thing a little bit. 00:19:25.680 --> 00:19:32.920 Jerry Mikulski and I and some other folks are working on something called Neo Books. 00:19:32.920 --> 00:19:36.280 A number of people have talked about Wikibooks. 00:19:36.280 --> 00:19:38.440 Most recently, Jordan. 00:19:38.440 --> 00:19:41.880 Different people mean different things by Wikibooks. 00:19:41.880 --> 00:19:49.440 But anyway, Jerry's thought a fair amount about Neo-books 00:19:49.440 --> 00:19:52.420 and also has articulated, I think. 00:19:52.420 --> 00:19:53.700 So if you poke through his brain, 00:19:53.700 --> 00:19:54.880 you could probably find Neo-books. 00:19:54.880 --> 00:19:58.080 And then a Neo-book is probably something 00:19:58.080 --> 00:20:00.680 that might exist as an e-book, 00:20:00.680 --> 00:20:02.480 maybe even as a printed book. 00:20:02.480 --> 00:20:06.160 but it's probably also a website 00:20:06.160 --> 00:20:09.060 and it's probably also a set of presentations. 00:20:09.060 --> 00:20:13.240 It's probably also, you know, podcasts and videos 00:20:13.240 --> 00:20:15.520 and all kinds of things, right? 00:20:15.520 --> 00:20:16.940 So once you've got that, 00:20:16.940 --> 00:20:21.540 the curated information narrativized, 00:20:21.540 --> 00:20:26.540 then, you know, book is gonna mean something different 00:20:26.540 --> 00:20:29.120 than it did 50 years ago. 00:20:30.860 --> 00:20:34.140 And let me go, since we don't have too many people, 00:20:34.140 --> 00:20:36.740 I can kind of get into a little detail 00:20:36.740 --> 00:20:39.680 and go back over your points. 00:20:39.680 --> 00:20:42.420 For co-writing, this can be better than Google Docs. 00:20:42.420 --> 00:20:43.820 It can be worse. 00:20:43.820 --> 00:20:50.700 But it gets better and better the longer the piece is. 00:20:50.700 --> 00:20:52.940 So if you're writing a blog post, 00:20:52.940 --> 00:20:54.940 you might use HackMD for a blog post. 00:20:54.940 --> 00:20:58.540 You would not use Git. 00:20:58.540 --> 00:21:00.740 Markdown is actually always a great thing 00:21:00.740 --> 00:21:04.500 learn. It's used in a lot of places and it's good to know Markdown. 00:21:04.500 --> 00:21:09.380 Yeah, and I'm doing my work primarily in Obsidian. 00:21:09.380 --> 00:21:10.980 Yeah, so there you go. 00:21:10.980 --> 00:21:16.340 And I'm assuming for the moment that it's going to be Obsidian to Obsidian publish 00:21:16.340 --> 00:21:18.260 as the first layer, but who knows? 00:21:18.260 --> 00:21:23.700 Yeah, so there's a thing that I stuck in here. There's a great article called 00:21:23.700 --> 00:21:29.620 Writing Long Form Content with Obsidian on 54. There's a plugin now that kind of, 00:21:30.260 --> 00:21:37.060 It's a little, it makes Obsidian kind of like Scrivener Lite, and you write separate pages 00:21:37.060 --> 00:21:41.700 as chapters or whatever you want, and then there's a plugin, the long form plugin, 00:21:41.700 --> 00:21:47.780 that will output the whole thing for you and output it in PDF or, you know, different formats. 00:21:47.780 --> 00:21:50.740 I'm sorry, you put that in chat? 00:21:50.740 --> 00:21:53.620 It's on line 54 in this doc. 00:21:53.620 --> 00:21:55.380 Oh, got it. Thank you. 00:21:55.380 --> 00:22:01.620 And to make it easier to click a link if you want to, you use the right pane rather than 00:22:01.620 --> 00:22:10.580 trying to figure out how to copy and paste. Either way. So for co-writing, Gil, if you're 00:22:10.580 --> 00:22:15.780 using Obsidian already, you kind of know that it's a good tool for managing a lot of markdown 00:22:15.780 --> 00:22:21.780 files. A lot of, you know, it can replace a lot of Scrivener, for instance, as a writing tool. 00:22:24.180 --> 00:22:30.820 The thing that we're mixing in here, the idea that we want to mix in is the idea of using Git 00:22:30.820 --> 00:22:36.420 as well. And Git has a fair bit of overhead, a fair bit of friction to get started with, 00:22:36.420 --> 00:22:44.100 but then it is super productive once you kind of get going. So if you can get into that, 00:22:44.100 --> 00:22:51.140 you know, if you can get over the speed bump at the front, you start singing. And then 00:22:51.140 --> 00:22:56.140 And for your other things, for a book, 00:22:56.140 --> 00:23:04.100 getting the prices right would be a great thing 00:23:04.100 --> 00:23:06.420 to do with Git and Markdown, 00:23:06.420 --> 00:23:08.340 as long as all your other co-authors 00:23:08.340 --> 00:23:10.100 or almost all of your other co-authors 00:23:10.100 --> 00:23:13.580 are willing to get over that speed bump of let's use Git. 00:23:13.580 --> 00:23:15.380 - How big is the speed bump, Peter? 00:23:15.380 --> 00:23:19.780 - If you're using Obsidian already, 00:23:19.780 --> 00:23:23.240 there's a very nice plugin called Obsidian Git 00:23:23.240 --> 00:23:27.120 that hooks Obsidian up to Git. 00:23:27.120 --> 00:23:36.360 Let me show you because again, we've got some time here. 00:23:36.360 --> 00:23:39.040 - And if you can tell me again, 00:23:39.040 --> 00:23:41.120 the first thing, the other plugin that you mentioned 00:23:41.120 --> 00:23:42.520 that was the Scrivener Lite. 00:23:42.520 --> 00:23:45.640 Did you put that in your timer? 00:23:45.640 --> 00:23:47.280 - Yeah, line 54. 00:23:49.400 --> 00:23:51.640 Obsidian itself is kind of a Scrivener lite. 00:23:51.640 --> 00:23:54.240 And then the only thing it's kind of missing is output. 00:23:54.240 --> 00:24:01.920 And then so the long form plugin adds the output thing. 00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:03.920 Let me reshare my screen a little bit 00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:05.480 and show you Obsidian Git. 00:24:05.480 --> 00:24:20.500 [ Pause ] 00:24:20.500 --> 00:24:22.920 >> Yeah, the question for me is going 00:24:22.920 --> 00:24:24.340 to be how big is the speed bump? 00:24:24.340 --> 00:24:24.760 Because -- 00:24:24.760 --> 00:24:25.600 >> Yeah. 00:24:25.600 --> 00:24:28.140 >> And some of these folks may just have an assistant that, 00:24:28.140 --> 00:24:30.480 you know, they give -- they deliver a text file 00:24:30.480 --> 00:24:31.220 and somebody else -- 00:24:31.220 --> 00:24:31.380 >> Yeah. 00:24:31.380 --> 00:24:32.360 >> -- can find it for them. 00:24:32.360 --> 00:24:32.760 That may be -- 00:24:33.240 --> 00:24:36.680 Yeah, it's kind of-- 00:24:36.680 --> 00:24:37.480 well, yeah. 00:24:37.480 --> 00:24:43.880 Can you make that bigger by any chance? 00:24:43.880 --> 00:24:46.960 The text or the-- 00:24:46.960 --> 00:24:49.640 Never mind, I just closed the chat, so it's better. 00:24:49.640 --> 00:24:52.320 Cool. 00:24:52.320 --> 00:24:53.400 This is Obsidian. 00:24:53.400 --> 00:24:56.360 This is a markdown page. 00:24:56.360 --> 00:25:01.960 This particular-- I think this is peterkaminski.wiki. 00:25:01.960 --> 00:25:03.440 Yeah. 00:25:03.440 --> 00:25:07.880 So sorry to kind of jump ahead, folks. 00:25:07.880 --> 00:25:12.560 But one of the things we use Obsidian for 00:25:12.560 --> 00:25:14.720 is kind of information management. 00:25:14.720 --> 00:25:16.480 Another thing is for collaborative writing. 00:25:16.480 --> 00:25:18.520 Another thing is to make websites. 00:25:18.520 --> 00:25:20.640 This one is actually kind of to make websites. 00:25:20.640 --> 00:25:25.220 Can I stop you for a second? 00:25:25.220 --> 00:25:27.280 Can you do collaborative writing in Obsidian? 00:25:27.280 --> 00:25:30.040 Does it support a multi-user access to a page? 00:25:30.040 --> 00:25:34.600 - It's a longer answer. 00:25:34.600 --> 00:25:36.880 - Okay, skip it for now, we'll get it another time. 00:25:36.880 --> 00:25:38.380 - Let me answer it real quick. 00:25:38.380 --> 00:25:40.960 Especially Bill Anderson and I, 00:25:40.960 --> 00:25:44.800 we've played with a lot of different ways to do this. 00:25:44.800 --> 00:25:48.800 And it turns out that you kind of want to, 00:25:48.800 --> 00:25:57.360 the short answer is yes, 00:25:57.360 --> 00:25:59.360 and the long answer is it kind of depends 00:25:59.360 --> 00:26:08.640 you want to do it and how like crazy making you mind it being. It turns out that Git is 00:26:08.640 --> 00:26:12.320 actually still a pretty good way to do collaborative writing. 00:26:12.320 --> 00:26:14.320 Or Obsidian Git. 00:26:14.320 --> 00:26:22.240 Yeah. And it doesn't matter actually if the other person is using Obsidian. They could be using 00:26:22.240 --> 00:26:30.480 Emacs or VS Code or whatever, but often it's Obsidian. My pattern is to do interactive sessions 00:26:30.480 --> 00:26:39.280 and things where you're collaborating right in the teeth of it on HackMD. It's easy to move 00:26:39.280 --> 00:26:48.400 files back and forth from HackMD to Obsidian. So my typical thing is to work cheek by jowl 00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:56.880 in HackMD always. And then when we break up over the course of the week, we're working together, 00:26:56.880 --> 00:27:05.280 then I would fall back to Git. For depending on who you're working with, Git might be a step too 00:27:05.280 --> 00:27:13.760 far kind of. So then it turns out that if you just use Obsidian Sync, or you can use, which is a paid 00:27:13.760 --> 00:27:19.960 service from the Obsidian, the fine folks at Obsidian. You can also use sync thing, 00:27:19.960 --> 00:27:30.940 which is very similar, it turns out. There's almost real-time syncing. So, if somebody 00:27:30.940 --> 00:27:35.840 was editing this page, if this was synced through Obsidian sync and someone else was 00:27:35.840 --> 00:27:41.800 editing it, I would see their edits come through like a few seconds later. We don't have a 00:27:41.800 --> 00:27:44.200 a way to negotiate through Obsidian Sync, 00:27:44.200 --> 00:27:47.360 we don't have a way to negotiate conflicts. 00:27:47.360 --> 00:27:49.740 So if I'm typing on one paragraph, 00:27:49.740 --> 00:27:51.540 somebody else is typing one paragraph, 00:27:51.540 --> 00:27:54.160 I think we're both gonna be sad at some point. 00:27:54.160 --> 00:27:57.000 And you start ending up with, 00:27:57.000 --> 00:27:59.040 Obsidian Sync I think is working with the whole file, 00:27:59.040 --> 00:28:01.560 it's not working with the lines of characters. 00:28:01.560 --> 00:28:04.500 HackMD works character by character, 00:28:04.500 --> 00:28:09.120 and even if you are both typing in the same place, 00:28:09.120 --> 00:28:11.600 you'll move apart from each other a little bit 00:28:11.600 --> 00:28:14.480 and it's fine, it works really well. 00:28:14.480 --> 00:28:19.000 So then the Git-based collaboration 00:28:19.000 --> 00:28:21.760 is even a little chunkier than that, 00:28:21.760 --> 00:28:24.880 than Obsidian Sync. 00:28:24.880 --> 00:28:32.680 And it turns out that you also need a side channel. 00:28:32.680 --> 00:28:36.560 You need to use Metamost or Slack or Discord 00:28:36.560 --> 00:28:40.800 or WhatsApp or Signal or something like that to say, 00:28:40.800 --> 00:28:43.200 "Hey, I'm gonna start working on this table of contents 00:28:43.200 --> 00:28:45.240 "and elements of great fiction, is that okay?" 00:28:45.240 --> 00:28:47.960 And the other person will also go, "Yeah, that's cool." 00:28:47.960 --> 00:28:51.720 And maybe remember to link to these other pages 00:28:51.720 --> 00:28:52.840 or something like that. 00:28:52.840 --> 00:28:55.560 You wanna synchronize what you're working on 00:28:55.560 --> 00:28:57.920 and you need a chat channel to do that. 00:28:57.920 --> 00:29:01.520 So then once you're using Git, 00:29:01.520 --> 00:29:05.300 this is the control panel for Git, Obsidian Git. 00:29:06.560 --> 00:29:11.120 It turns out that like 90% of the time 00:29:11.120 --> 00:29:15.120 you can just click this one button, actually two buttons. 00:29:15.120 --> 00:29:19.280 You click this button to pull changes from the cloud 00:29:19.280 --> 00:29:20.580 and you click this button. 00:29:20.580 --> 00:29:23.660 Yeah, you got pull and push. 00:29:23.660 --> 00:29:25.180 You kind of stay away from the push one. 00:29:25.180 --> 00:29:27.900 This is like a super push that does everything for you. 00:29:27.900 --> 00:29:31.880 So between that pull and the super push, 00:29:31.880 --> 00:29:34.240 you can kind of just fire and forget 00:29:34.240 --> 00:29:35.880 and not worry about it very much. 00:29:35.880 --> 00:29:47.200 In the context of this inquiry, the Markdown plus Git inquiry, I'm hoping and I think Ray's 00:29:47.200 --> 00:29:49.600 project will support it. 00:29:49.600 --> 00:29:58.560 There's another level of using Git where you're actually using -- you use separate branches 00:29:58.560 --> 00:30:02.360 for people working on separate things. 00:30:02.360 --> 00:30:10.120 And you can do fine grained commenting and things like that on particular versions of 00:30:10.120 --> 00:30:11.120 this. 00:30:11.120 --> 00:30:16.120 So, through the Git and GitHub magic, you can have multiple, like many, many versions 00:30:16.120 --> 00:30:23.920 potentially of this whole book and work together on it in a very fine grained way and accept 00:30:23.920 --> 00:30:30.840 some of the changes, but some of the changes for further discussion, reject some of the 00:30:30.840 --> 00:30:33.000 changes, all of that kind of stuff. 00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:36.280 That's what software developers do with their code 00:30:36.280 --> 00:30:36.920 all the time. 00:30:36.920 --> 00:30:41.160 And that's the super turbocharged version. 00:30:41.160 --> 00:30:45.840 And in this case, you're talking about Markdown plus Git? 00:30:45.840 --> 00:30:46.920 Yes. 00:30:46.920 --> 00:30:48.920 OK. 00:30:48.920 --> 00:30:51.080 With the speed bump. 00:30:51.080 --> 00:30:51.760 OK. 00:30:51.760 --> 00:30:55.000 So the first speed bump is, I guess, 00:30:55.000 --> 00:30:59.720 if you're just using Git for working together with people, 00:30:59.720 --> 00:31:05.880 It's kind of a wash whether you use Git or Obsidian Sync or SyncThing. 00:31:05.880 --> 00:31:11.520 If you're using Git, you can keep leveling up and get more sophisticated. 00:31:11.520 --> 00:31:14.920 You can get very sophisticated, very powerful collaboration. 00:31:14.920 --> 00:31:20.600 But it requires not only getting over that first speed bump, but then going up a bit 00:31:20.600 --> 00:31:22.040 of a learning curve. 00:31:22.040 --> 00:31:27.400 It's not as steep as it seems, I think, but it's also not very well documented and not 00:31:27.400 --> 00:31:34.840 very, the path isn't well trodden. So that's part of the Git plus Markdown project is to try to, 00:31:34.840 --> 00:31:40.280 you know, trod this path. That's, I think, not that big of a deal, but it feels like a big deal 00:31:40.280 --> 00:31:45.480 still. Okay. Thank you. That's very helpful. So I think, I think for my purposes, I'd probably 00:31:45.480 --> 00:31:52.920 start with the Markdown, with the, with the, with the Obsidian Git thing. Yeah. You might even... 00:31:53.480 --> 00:31:57.480 or mark down Obsidian and then get started there 00:31:57.480 --> 00:31:59.000 and see what we know about each other 00:31:59.000 --> 00:32:00.240 and what the workflow looks like 00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:02.880 and then talk to you about starting to work. 00:32:02.880 --> 00:32:03.780 - That sounds good. 00:32:03.780 --> 00:32:09.880 If you don't mind paying for Obsidian Git 00:32:09.880 --> 00:32:13.000 and you have to, every person working together 00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:15.420 needs Obsidian Git. 00:32:15.420 --> 00:32:20.620 And then each person can host five documents. 00:32:20.620 --> 00:32:28.260 Obsidian Git is a little bit easier place to start, I would say, because it's built 00:32:28.260 --> 00:32:29.260 into Obsidian. 00:32:29.260 --> 00:32:33.900 Obsidian Git is a third-party thing, and it carries a lot of baggage from Git into it 00:32:33.900 --> 00:32:36.420 that can be a little bit overwhelming. 00:32:36.420 --> 00:32:39.100 Good baggage or bad baggage? 00:32:39.100 --> 00:32:40.100 Mostly bad. 00:32:40.100 --> 00:32:41.100 Okay. 00:32:41.100 --> 00:32:48.220 So, Pete, you kept saying Obsidian Git, but I think you meant Obsidian Sync, about paying 00:32:48.220 --> 00:32:50.980 And only five documents? 00:32:50.980 --> 00:32:56.020 Obsidian Sync is paid, and each person can share five documents. 00:32:56.020 --> 00:32:58.100 Sorry if I mixed that up. 00:32:58.100 --> 00:33:01.060 Five documents or five vaults? 00:33:01.060 --> 00:33:01.700 Five vaults. 00:33:01.700 --> 00:33:02.740 You're entirely right. 00:33:02.740 --> 00:33:03.240 Yes. 00:33:03.240 --> 00:33:13.700 And Obsidian Sync is easier and a little bit less effective. 00:33:13.700 --> 00:33:18.700 Obsidian Git is a little bit more effective and a lot harder, 00:33:18.700 --> 00:33:23.860 but it also is a gateway to superpower 00:33:23.860 --> 00:33:25.400 and Obsidian Sync is not. 00:33:25.400 --> 00:33:28.760 - Obsidian Git's got a lot of users. 00:33:28.760 --> 00:33:30.980 - Yeah. 00:33:30.980 --> 00:33:36.200 While we're talking about Git clumsiness, 00:33:36.200 --> 00:33:41.700 I also wanted to point out down at line 85, 00:33:41.700 --> 00:33:49.580 I've got a link to a page of GUI clients for Git and actually let's look at one or two 00:33:49.580 --> 00:33:54.740 of those real quick. 00:33:54.740 --> 00:34:06.580 Let me show you command line Git actually. 00:34:06.580 --> 00:34:09.540 So first of all, it's command line. 00:34:09.540 --> 00:34:12.140 I'll make the command line a little bit bigger here. 00:34:12.140 --> 00:34:20.780 I guess I should have made it bigger 00:34:20.780 --> 00:34:22.380 and then made the window bigger. 00:34:22.380 --> 00:34:29.500 So you type things like get status. 00:34:29.500 --> 00:34:33.960 You can actually edit, I'm gonna open this. 00:34:37.060 --> 00:34:42.780 I could be using one of the beauties of Markdown and Obsidian and things like that is I can 00:34:42.780 --> 00:34:53.860 be well, I also have this open in Obsidian, but I'm going to go through here and maybe 00:34:53.860 --> 00:34:55.660 I'll even edit this page. 00:34:55.660 --> 00:35:02.660 So I'm going to open that with Typora and make a change here. 00:35:02.660 --> 00:35:18.660 Yeah, actually, I'm going to trash this. 00:35:18.660 --> 00:35:20.660 So it's like, whoops, I made a mistake. 00:35:20.660 --> 00:35:25.660 I won't publish this to the web. 00:35:25.660 --> 00:35:33.940 So this is kind of an example of me editing some stuff, 00:35:33.940 --> 00:35:35.620 maybe making a mistake. 00:35:35.620 --> 00:35:38.740 If I say get status now, it's like, 00:35:38.740 --> 00:35:41.260 hey dude, this has changed. 00:35:41.260 --> 00:35:43.960 So then I can say, what are the changes? 00:35:43.960 --> 00:35:49.580 Green is added, red is subtracted. 00:35:49.580 --> 00:35:52.980 So, you know, here's the thing I did there. 00:35:52.980 --> 00:35:57.060 This is where I screwed things up and kind of changed it. 00:35:57.060 --> 00:36:00.360 So this is what a developer, 00:36:00.360 --> 00:36:02.420 developers sometimes have a little fancier tool, 00:36:02.420 --> 00:36:05.060 but this is kind of a deal with developers. 00:36:05.060 --> 00:36:10.060 So then to deal with this, 00:36:10.060 --> 00:36:14.100 I can say things like I can check out, check for branches. 00:36:15.100 --> 00:36:20.100 I could get checkout dash B. 00:36:20.100 --> 00:36:29.800 I can put my changes on a branch. 00:36:29.800 --> 00:36:36.340 I can actually, anyway, you type things like this 00:36:36.340 --> 00:36:37.340 and you get the idea. 00:36:37.340 --> 00:36:44.140 Let's look at tower and I'll just type in 00:36:44.140 --> 00:36:47.340 And I'll just show you the screen cap here. 00:36:47.340 --> 00:36:48.780 Well, actually I'll show you two things. 00:36:48.780 --> 00:36:50.620 We'll click on pricing first. 00:36:50.620 --> 00:36:54.500 100 bucks per user per year. 00:36:54.500 --> 00:36:57.340 It's like, oh my, you know, oh my gosh. 00:36:57.340 --> 00:37:01.220 I think you might be able to get away with one user. 00:37:01.220 --> 00:37:04.240 This is even fancier than you probably need, 00:37:04.240 --> 00:37:06.780 but you can probably get away with 70 bucks a year. 00:37:06.780 --> 00:37:09.100 So Tower is like the Primo version. 00:37:09.100 --> 00:37:11.540 It also has Mac and Windows. 00:37:11.540 --> 00:37:14.620 There's a nice Mac one that doesn't have a Windows version. 00:37:14.620 --> 00:37:17.300 So you're not all using the same tool, which is a problem. 00:37:17.300 --> 00:37:21.500 But anyway, here's the red and green thing. 00:37:21.500 --> 00:37:24.740 Here's branches, instead of having to keep in your head 00:37:24.740 --> 00:37:27.260 what branches are and how they work and stuff like that, 00:37:27.260 --> 00:37:29.860 you get this beautiful picture of it. 00:37:29.860 --> 00:37:34.860 And if you kind of like poke around at the features here, 00:37:34.860 --> 00:37:39.540 it's got lots of fancy things for managing 00:37:39.540 --> 00:37:40.920 all the Git magic. 00:37:40.920 --> 00:37:45.920 And again, all that Git magic is superpower stuff. 00:37:45.920 --> 00:37:50.460 It's like you all of a sudden you get 5X productivity or 10X productivity. 00:37:50.460 --> 00:37:52.200 It's mind-blowingly cool. 00:37:52.200 --> 00:37:54.040 But it's not cheap. 00:37:54.040 --> 00:37:58.080 And either you pay money and use this GUI tool. 00:37:58.080 --> 00:38:04.400 And even this, it's not super intuitive for me to figure out what all these lines mean. 00:38:04.400 --> 00:38:08.600 It's kind of a difficult map to understand. 00:38:08.600 --> 00:38:11.280 Bill and I use this command line thing 00:38:11.280 --> 00:38:15.120 and keep that picture in our heads, actually. 00:38:15.120 --> 00:38:16.920 Ray? 00:38:16.920 --> 00:38:21.720 - Yes, so question about your comment 00:38:21.720 --> 00:38:24.920 about 5X or 10X productivity. 00:38:24.920 --> 00:38:29.380 Was that remark specific to writing code, 00:38:29.380 --> 00:38:30.840 or would you say that that applies 00:38:30.840 --> 00:38:32.800 for collaborative writing too? 00:38:32.800 --> 00:38:33.800 - You know, the funny thing is, 00:38:33.800 --> 00:38:35.080 I think it would actually be better 00:38:35.080 --> 00:38:36.440 with collaborative writing. 00:38:38.000 --> 00:38:38.840 - Wow. 00:38:38.840 --> 00:38:42.080 - I think 00:38:42.080 --> 00:38:47.760 with code, code is complex enough 00:38:47.760 --> 00:38:50.240 that you kind of get bogged down in little details 00:38:50.240 --> 00:38:54.800 and that's where the collaboration work goes. 00:38:54.800 --> 00:38:58.440 I think with writing, you could, 00:38:58.440 --> 00:39:02.880 you know, you could leverage the tools to 00:39:02.880 --> 00:39:06.160 like multiply your group intelligence 00:39:06.160 --> 00:39:09.340 in a way that doesn't happen too much in coding. 00:39:09.340 --> 00:39:13.700 - Yeah, Pete, thanks for that. 00:39:13.700 --> 00:39:18.700 My assumption now is that this stuff needs to be invisible 00:39:18.700 --> 00:39:23.360 to the contributors, but could be very helpful 00:39:23.360 --> 00:39:25.200 for the production team. 00:39:25.200 --> 00:39:28.380 - Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. 00:39:28.380 --> 00:39:32.260 And especially for your use cases, 00:39:35.080 --> 00:39:38.160 There's a nirvana where you've got a particular, 00:39:38.160 --> 00:39:40.240 a nirvana for me maybe. 00:39:40.240 --> 00:39:43.440 You've got a product or a project which is all writing, 00:39:43.440 --> 00:39:44.840 there's no tech involved. 00:39:44.840 --> 00:39:49.400 And each of your writers has enough 00:39:49.400 --> 00:39:56.740 patience and tolerance for uncomfortableness 00:39:56.740 --> 00:40:00.200 to go over the speed bump 00:40:00.200 --> 00:40:02.440 and then climb up the learning curve. 00:40:02.440 --> 00:40:06.760 And that may sound like a crazy thing for me to guess, 00:40:06.760 --> 00:40:08.760 but it happened all the time 00:40:08.760 --> 00:40:10.660 when computers were harder to use. 00:40:10.660 --> 00:40:15.800 My wife, for instance, is not a techie. 00:40:15.800 --> 00:40:17.240 She was using a command line. 00:40:17.240 --> 00:40:21.200 She was using a command line email program. 00:40:21.200 --> 00:40:23.240 So the thing that you do now with Twitter 00:40:23.240 --> 00:40:26.280 or with Outlook or something like that, 00:40:26.280 --> 00:40:30.000 she had to go through kind of the same level of clunkiness 00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:33.000 and weird speed bumps and learning curves 00:40:33.000 --> 00:40:35.560 just to be able to send email and things like that. 00:40:35.560 --> 00:40:41.760 It's not, we have a conflation that only technical people 00:40:41.760 --> 00:40:47.120 can learn how to do like these little fiddly computer things. 00:40:47.120 --> 00:40:49.700 I don't, I've seen that not to be true. 00:40:49.700 --> 00:40:54.280 Even this command line stuff, which I don't think, 00:40:54.280 --> 00:40:57.720 nowadays I'd probably use the GUI for the non-tech folks. 00:40:57.720 --> 00:41:00.560 But even as this, you know, 00:41:00.560 --> 00:41:01.960 there's just a few things you learn. 00:41:01.960 --> 00:41:04.040 You learn to type this, you learn to type that. 00:41:04.040 --> 00:41:05.840 You have a little cheat sheet. 00:41:05.840 --> 00:41:09.480 - I think I'm command line without lining indentations. 00:41:09.480 --> 00:41:11.520 I think everybody could get pretty quickly. 00:41:11.520 --> 00:41:12.520 - Yeah. 00:41:12.520 --> 00:41:13.360 Yeah. 00:41:13.360 --> 00:41:14.360 - So, all right. 00:41:14.360 --> 00:41:16.680 - And it's pretty rote stuff. 00:41:16.680 --> 00:41:19.640 You know, there's, you just go through your checklist 00:41:19.640 --> 00:41:21.840 of steps and you just do it. 00:41:21.840 --> 00:41:24.720 And it's, but it's not. 00:41:24.720 --> 00:41:29.180 So structural defects of capitalism you've got 00:41:29.180 --> 00:41:32.240 in the open with a large group of collaborators, 00:41:32.240 --> 00:41:34.060 you don't have the opportunity to train 00:41:34.060 --> 00:41:36.420 each of the collaborators up into like, 00:41:36.420 --> 00:41:40.040 oh, I'm using Git and GitHub pull requests 00:41:40.040 --> 00:41:41.160 and all that kind of stuff. 00:41:41.160 --> 00:41:45.320 You don't have that opportunity with the mass public. 00:41:45.320 --> 00:41:47.480 Those folks are not going to be the folks 00:41:47.480 --> 00:41:51.240 that can tolerate that. 00:41:51.240 --> 00:41:53.160 - Yeah, and the mass public might need something 00:41:53.160 --> 00:41:56.120 like a G-Docs type of commenting feature, 00:41:56.120 --> 00:41:58.480 but even that is too much for some humans. 00:41:58.480 --> 00:41:59.480 - Yep, yep. 00:41:59.480 --> 00:42:05.680 Having said that, there's another nirvana for everybody. 00:42:05.680 --> 00:42:07.920 GitHub enabled a kind of collaboration 00:42:07.920 --> 00:42:10.160 where you collaborate with people you don't know. 00:42:10.160 --> 00:42:14.240 So once you, kind of like Kylie, 00:42:14.240 --> 00:42:17.360 once you have that unlocked, 00:42:17.360 --> 00:42:21.160 once you know how to do a little bit of Git stuff, 00:42:21.160 --> 00:42:22.760 all of a sudden you can collaborate 00:42:22.760 --> 00:42:25.640 with many people you don't know and vice versa. 00:42:25.640 --> 00:42:29.100 Many people that you don't know can drop in on your project 00:42:29.100 --> 00:42:32.080 without even talking to you and improve it. 00:42:32.080 --> 00:42:36.200 And improve it in a way that's continually gated 00:42:36.200 --> 00:42:41.200 by whatever, you don't give them right access 00:42:41.200 --> 00:42:42.720 to the core thing. 00:42:42.720 --> 00:42:45.140 They have right access to their copy of the core thing 00:42:45.140 --> 00:42:47.600 and then they can say, hey, compare my core thing 00:42:47.600 --> 00:42:50.960 with your core thing and grab whatever you think 00:42:50.960 --> 00:42:58.400 an improvement. So that's another like you know another huge jump of superpower stuff that that 00:42:58.400 --> 00:43:06.160 we should be able to get to in text someday. Thank you. Yeah sure thing Gil. Butler do you want to go? 00:43:06.160 --> 00:43:14.960 Yeah sure. Just one last thing. I dropped in at line 38. I searched for Neo Books. There's a 00:43:14.960 --> 00:43:17.040 a German site called neobooks.com that 00:43:17.040 --> 00:43:19.400 appears to offer something. 00:43:19.400 --> 00:43:21.120 Google Translate won't translate it, 00:43:21.120 --> 00:43:23.000 so if one of you can figure out what it says, 00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:24.960 that might be worth a look for somebody. 00:43:24.960 --> 00:43:25.760 Cool, thank you. 00:43:25.760 --> 00:43:33.120 OK, yeah, so for me, I'm a software developer, 00:43:33.120 --> 00:43:38.680 so at least I fairly know how to use Git and GitHub 00:43:38.680 --> 00:43:43.120 or wake up collaboratively with other developers. 00:43:43.120 --> 00:43:47.200 So I got interested in this in order to learn more 00:43:47.200 --> 00:43:49.200 about multiplayer writing. 00:43:49.200 --> 00:43:52.000 And at the moment I'm learning technical writing. 00:43:52.000 --> 00:43:55.160 So I thought it would be a nice project 00:43:55.160 --> 00:43:58.320 to learn more about writing. 00:43:58.320 --> 00:44:01.320 Yeah, then last month, yeah. 00:44:01.320 --> 00:44:07.200 So last month I came across D.School, 00:44:11.760 --> 00:44:14.240 the collaborative work in progress. 00:44:14.240 --> 00:44:17.480 So they actually do almost the same thing. 00:44:17.480 --> 00:44:19.840 So I thought, then I found like most of the work 00:44:19.840 --> 00:44:21.280 that had already been done, 00:44:21.280 --> 00:44:23.040 much of it is session on the project 00:44:23.040 --> 00:44:25.640 and a lot has been written. 00:44:25.640 --> 00:44:28.400 So it was just like us trying to make a few changes 00:44:28.400 --> 00:44:32.100 when I got on course with the team, 00:44:32.100 --> 00:44:33.600 the guys that are leading it. 00:44:33.600 --> 00:44:38.600 So I thought maybe joining a project 00:44:38.600 --> 00:44:40.540 that's starting from scratch 00:44:40.540 --> 00:44:42.820 and then being able to build up from there 00:44:42.820 --> 00:44:44.100 would be something interesting. 00:44:44.100 --> 00:44:46.620 And then it would really help me 00:44:46.620 --> 00:44:48.600 in terms of learning how to write 00:44:48.600 --> 00:44:52.420 and then more so write in groups 00:44:52.420 --> 00:44:57.260 'cause last year, I did an RKB, that's Kennel. 00:44:57.260 --> 00:45:00.580 So Kennel Block 7, in case folks are not in Kennel. 00:45:00.580 --> 00:45:05.580 So we were writing things about decentralized finance 00:45:06.100 --> 00:45:17.320 And we did make amazing effort, but then I think we struggled 00:45:17.320 --> 00:45:21.880 a bit in terms of getting the goals that we had put down 00:45:21.880 --> 00:45:23.000 and then achieving them. 00:45:23.000 --> 00:45:26.800 So I thought, yeah, maybe doing this would be interesting 00:45:26.800 --> 00:45:31.400 and then help me learn more about collaborative writing. 00:45:31.400 --> 00:45:33.800 Yeah, thanks. 00:45:33.800 --> 00:45:34.400 Thanks, Butler. 00:45:34.400 --> 00:45:35.360 That's great. 00:45:35.360 --> 00:45:37.960 So I'm going to add kind of the last thing that you said. 00:45:37.960 --> 00:45:49.520 I want to learn how project management works 00:45:49.520 --> 00:45:50.600 with collaborative writing. 00:45:50.600 --> 00:45:57.000 As it happens, I've got a lot of experience, 00:45:57.000 --> 00:46:00.280 and some of the rest of us do, kind of in this group, 00:46:00.280 --> 00:46:03.560 about project management and collaborative writing 00:46:03.560 --> 00:46:05.680 and how to do those together. 00:46:05.680 --> 00:46:09.660 So that would be really cool to work on. 00:46:09.660 --> 00:46:16.580 Anybody else have got something for this? 00:46:16.580 --> 00:46:20.920 And if you do, you can keep adding. 00:46:20.920 --> 00:46:26.100 Let's talk, I'd kind of like to get pretty much done 00:46:26.100 --> 00:46:27.120 at the top of the hour. 00:46:27.120 --> 00:46:29.300 So we've got nine minutes left. 00:46:31.380 --> 00:46:38.100 Let's talk about-- sorry, let me figure out 00:46:38.100 --> 00:46:39.540 how to stop screen sharing here. 00:46:39.540 --> 00:46:55.940 Let's talk about whether or not we're going to meet up again 00:46:55.940 --> 00:46:59.700 and maybe think about how to get started 00:46:59.700 --> 00:47:02.900 on either a small project or a big project. 00:47:02.900 --> 00:47:08.180 I'm up for meeting again. 00:47:08.180 --> 00:47:10.480 It doesn't have to be at this time every week. 00:47:10.480 --> 00:47:15.660 We could either have like a get together session 00:47:15.660 --> 00:47:17.660 and kind of figure out what we're going to do 00:47:17.660 --> 00:47:20.660 and then maybe do some smaller groups, 00:47:20.660 --> 00:47:24.660 one, two or three people working on a project. 00:47:24.660 --> 00:47:27.420 We could meet every week, we could meet every other week. 00:47:29.660 --> 00:47:31.860 - So I'd like to do that. 00:47:31.860 --> 00:47:36.260 I'm most interested in actually experimenting 00:47:36.260 --> 00:47:38.720 with a few folks about trying to, you know, 00:47:38.720 --> 00:47:41.360 deal with this so-called speed bump, 00:47:41.360 --> 00:47:44.340 little activation energy. 00:47:44.340 --> 00:47:45.780 And I think I can help 00:47:45.780 --> 00:47:48.560 'cause I've had a lot of experience with that. 00:47:48.560 --> 00:47:49.400 - Yep. 00:47:49.400 --> 00:47:52.620 - And I think that would be something valuable 00:47:52.620 --> 00:47:55.740 because if we could learn how to help each other 00:47:55.740 --> 00:47:59.580 use these tools to collaborate around writing, 00:47:59.580 --> 00:48:03.600 we could then help other people do the same thing. 00:48:03.600 --> 00:48:06.060 - I'm interested in that. 00:48:06.060 --> 00:48:07.460 Oh, I'm sorry, Bill. 00:48:07.460 --> 00:48:09.900 - And I just think that would be a valuable contribution 00:48:09.900 --> 00:48:12.060 rather than just saying, oh, that's what developers do. 00:48:12.060 --> 00:48:14.940 It's like, just throw that out, you know? 00:48:14.940 --> 00:48:17.540 We're all human beings here and we got keyboards. 00:48:17.540 --> 00:48:20.120 So turn me loose. 00:48:20.120 --> 00:48:23.300 - Kyle? 00:48:23.300 --> 00:48:25.260 - Yeah, I was gonna say, I'm interested in that too. 00:48:25.260 --> 00:48:28.500 And that last item about collaborative writing 00:48:28.500 --> 00:48:32.340 and project management, boy, have I been in the midst of that. 00:48:32.340 --> 00:48:35.300 I mean, I have a lot of experience in project management 00:48:35.300 --> 00:48:37.660 in my past, but I don't usually do that now. 00:48:37.660 --> 00:48:40.860 I do more marketing strategy and writing. 00:48:40.860 --> 00:48:44.020 So when I've been in those workflows, 00:48:44.020 --> 00:48:47.860 it almost always ends up people write over one another 00:48:47.860 --> 00:48:51.460 in Google Docs, and nobody has the timing right. 00:48:51.460 --> 00:48:56.220 And then people pop in, like another example from Palo Alto, 00:48:56.220 --> 00:48:57.020 there could be-- 00:48:57.020 --> 00:48:59.020 you never know who's going to pop in when you're 00:48:59.020 --> 00:49:00.420 trying to think and write. 00:49:00.420 --> 00:49:02.740 There might be a VP coming in because they 00:49:02.740 --> 00:49:07.220 have access or product marketing managers or product managers. 00:49:07.220 --> 00:49:09.300 And the PM and then other-- 00:49:09.300 --> 00:49:11.740 the creative department who's proofing it. 00:49:11.740 --> 00:49:15.700 There's almost-- never smooth is what I can say. 00:49:15.700 --> 00:49:18.260 It's like almost every one of my projects 00:49:18.260 --> 00:49:21.540 got derailed many times for those reasons. 00:49:21.540 --> 00:49:24.900 And a lot of the work I would do would, you know, 00:49:24.900 --> 00:49:26.580 I'd have to get the old versions back. 00:49:26.580 --> 00:49:28.140 And I'd always just do something 00:49:28.140 --> 00:49:29.740 that's not very sustainable. 00:49:29.740 --> 00:49:32.220 Save down the copy I was working on 00:49:32.220 --> 00:49:33.820 just to make sure I had it. 00:49:33.820 --> 00:49:36.260 'Cause it's easier to reference that 00:49:36.260 --> 00:49:39.420 than to go back to different versions a lot of times. 00:49:39.420 --> 00:49:40.940 So I think that's a huge problem 00:49:40.940 --> 00:49:45.340 'cause my experience in these larger tech companies 00:49:45.340 --> 00:49:47.740 is that they're working so fast and furiously 00:49:47.740 --> 00:49:50.300 that they forget any protocols. 00:49:50.300 --> 00:49:53.300 They don't, and everybody copies Google Docs 00:49:53.300 --> 00:49:55.620 'cause they can't get in, so they'll make a new copy 00:49:55.620 --> 00:49:57.340 and invite people to it. 00:49:57.340 --> 00:50:01.820 And everything is now the web version, the browser version. 00:50:01.820 --> 00:50:04.900 So you end up working in like 100 tabs 00:50:04.900 --> 00:50:08.860 instead of having any desktop applications. 00:50:08.860 --> 00:50:12.580 So those are things that slowed me down tremendously 00:50:12.580 --> 00:50:15.800 and I think took down the productivity of teams 00:50:15.800 --> 00:50:17.780 that I was working on it were like 75 people 00:50:17.780 --> 00:50:19.660 where basically we'd work for months 00:50:19.660 --> 00:50:21.380 and just waste all that. 00:50:21.380 --> 00:50:22.780 You know, most of the work gets wasted. 00:50:22.780 --> 00:50:26.300 So, but you're being driven to work really fast. 00:50:26.300 --> 00:50:27.300 And they call it agile, 00:50:27.300 --> 00:50:29.340 but of course it's not agile at all. 00:50:29.340 --> 00:50:30.160 - Yeah. 00:50:30.160 --> 00:50:34.920 Those are great use case horror stories. 00:50:34.920 --> 00:50:35.760 (laughs) 00:50:35.760 --> 00:50:37.340 - It's in the trenches. 00:50:37.340 --> 00:50:38.320 - Yeah, yeah. 00:50:38.320 --> 00:50:43.060 So it looks like we've got kind of quorum to keep meeting. 00:50:43.060 --> 00:50:50.740 One quick question I have, we've got the community forum on 00:50:50.740 --> 00:50:52.700 Passionate People. 00:50:52.700 --> 00:50:55.500 I'm kind of moderately satisfied with it. 00:50:55.500 --> 00:50:58.940 And there's a cool thing where I can add more course material, 00:50:58.940 --> 00:51:01.620 pre-recorded video courses. 00:51:01.620 --> 00:51:05.260 And then that's easy to get to from the Passionate People 00:51:05.260 --> 00:51:06.180 community. 00:51:06.180 --> 00:51:09.260 As a forum, it's kind of clunky for me. 00:51:09.260 --> 00:51:14.180 And what's even more galling is it doesn't speak Markdown. 00:51:14.180 --> 00:51:17.020 So what do people think? 00:51:17.020 --> 00:51:20.540 Should we keep using the PathShifts People forum? 00:51:20.540 --> 00:51:22.500 Should we make a mailing list? 00:51:22.500 --> 00:51:26.500 Should we use-- there's a Mattermost server 00:51:26.500 --> 00:51:28.300 I run that-- 00:51:28.300 --> 00:51:31.460 it's kind of like Slack, but that works really well. 00:51:31.460 --> 00:51:35.820 We need a way to coordinate offline. 00:51:35.820 --> 00:51:40.060 How do people feel about Passionate People, Community, 00:51:40.060 --> 00:51:42.940 Mattermost, mailing list, something else? 00:51:42.940 --> 00:51:48.980 - Well, I think that a mailing list is something 00:51:48.980 --> 00:51:53.700 that everyone will be familiar with, so it has that plus, 00:51:53.700 --> 00:51:58.700 but people sometimes get really a lot of emails 00:51:58.700 --> 00:52:01.980 and it would be noisy to use it for discussions, 00:52:01.980 --> 00:52:06.980 So Mattermost might work well for that. 00:52:06.980 --> 00:52:12.700 And the forum, it might still be good for announcements. 00:52:12.700 --> 00:52:18.180 I just don't know if it would be needed separately 00:52:18.180 --> 00:52:22.060 if there were another channel like a Mattermost 00:52:22.060 --> 00:52:25.420 or an email list. 00:52:25.420 --> 00:52:28.500 - That's well said, Ray. 00:52:28.500 --> 00:52:32.820 And along with email being kind of a, 00:52:32.820 --> 00:52:34.640 it can get kind of like a swamp. 00:52:34.640 --> 00:52:37.100 It's hard to find stuff in your email box. 00:52:37.100 --> 00:52:41.420 The other thing is it's not kind of real time. 00:52:41.420 --> 00:52:44.820 So a chat system like Mattermost is a lot more real time. 00:52:44.820 --> 00:52:48.500 And if we use a chat system, 00:52:48.500 --> 00:52:51.700 then we can practice collaborating. 00:52:51.700 --> 00:52:52.540 Thanks, Gil. 00:52:55.140 --> 00:52:57.260 we can practice collaborating, you know, 00:52:57.260 --> 00:52:59.660 semi-synchronously, which works really well 00:52:59.660 --> 00:53:00.940 with get and markdown. 00:53:00.940 --> 00:53:05.740 I'm gonna suggest that we go to Mattermost. 00:53:05.740 --> 00:53:11.480 Butler, Edwin, Kyle, does that sound okay? 00:53:11.480 --> 00:53:13.420 - Sure. 00:53:13.420 --> 00:53:15.860 - Yes. - Yeah. 00:53:15.860 --> 00:53:17.420 Yeah, sure, that sounds okay. 00:53:17.420 --> 00:53:18.240 - Awesome. 00:53:18.240 --> 00:53:24.660 Bill, I know you're gonna drop. 00:53:24.660 --> 00:53:25.820 - Yeah, I just wanna say one thing. 00:53:25.820 --> 00:53:30.060 So I would like this, I'm in for the time being here, 00:53:30.060 --> 00:53:33.140 you know, let's meet again and try and do something. 00:53:33.140 --> 00:53:35.020 I also said I'm willing to help people 00:53:35.020 --> 00:53:38.020 if they're one who don't know about Git 00:53:38.020 --> 00:53:40.780 because I know some things 00:53:40.780 --> 00:53:44.860 and I also faced my own breakdowns using it. 00:53:44.860 --> 00:53:47.460 So I think I might be able to be helpful 00:53:47.460 --> 00:53:50.800 in trying to help people get used to it. 00:53:50.800 --> 00:53:53.300 - Bill is super knowledgeable 00:53:53.300 --> 00:53:58.300 And he's kind of taking lead on trying to figure out 00:53:58.300 --> 00:54:03.300 this speed bump thing, how to get it usable for folks. 00:54:03.300 --> 00:54:05.820 He and I, both Bill and I have been working together 00:54:05.820 --> 00:54:06.940 in the massive wiki world, 00:54:06.940 --> 00:54:09.740 which is very similar to where we are now. 00:54:09.740 --> 00:54:10.980 In the massive wiki world, 00:54:10.980 --> 00:54:12.500 we're trying to figure out how to make it easier 00:54:12.500 --> 00:54:14.760 for people to join up and use it. 00:54:14.760 --> 00:54:16.880 So we've got some thinking 00:54:16.880 --> 00:54:18.980 and some stuff written down already 00:54:18.980 --> 00:54:21.200 on how to get through that. 00:54:22.720 --> 00:54:26.200 I will set up a Mattermost channel, 00:54:26.200 --> 00:54:29.360 and I will email that to the same people 00:54:29.360 --> 00:54:31.640 I emailed things to last night. 00:54:31.640 --> 00:54:33.360 So we'll probably pick up a few of the people 00:54:33.360 --> 00:54:34.600 that did make this call. 00:54:34.600 --> 00:54:40.840 And then let's figure out when to get together next. 00:54:40.840 --> 00:54:43.920 This is an okay time for me, but it's not best. 00:54:43.920 --> 00:54:47.920 So let's coordinate online, I guess, 00:54:47.920 --> 00:54:49.980 and we'll figure it out in the chat. 00:54:49.980 --> 00:54:53.440 Anything else? 00:54:53.440 --> 00:54:55.880 I can stay for a while if folks want to stay 00:54:55.880 --> 00:55:00.880 or we can kind of break up and just get onto Mattermost. 00:55:00.880 --> 00:55:03.420 We'll see, Bill. 00:55:03.420 --> 00:55:05.940 I can give a quick demo of Mattermost. 00:55:05.940 --> 00:55:09.440 Is everybody on CSE Mattermost already per chance 00:55:09.440 --> 00:55:12.120 or is this a new thing? 00:55:12.120 --> 00:55:14.840 - For me, it's a new thing. 00:55:14.840 --> 00:55:18.320 So I think it would be great for you to go through it. 00:55:18.320 --> 00:55:20.680 So I just see how it works in it. 00:55:20.680 --> 00:55:21.640 Yeah. 00:55:21.640 --> 00:55:22.480 - Great. 00:55:22.480 --> 00:55:27.600 The recording is gonna stop in a few minutes, I think, 00:55:27.600 --> 00:55:28.880 which is fine. 00:55:28.880 --> 00:55:29.920 It's not a problem at all, 00:55:29.920 --> 00:55:33.560 but for the people on the recording, 00:55:33.560 --> 00:55:35.220 if you missed the rest of this, 00:55:35.220 --> 00:55:38.500 just get in touch and we'll get you going. 00:55:38.500 --> 00:55:41.620 Okay, let me share my screen again. 00:55:41.620 --> 00:56:05.700 And you can, to start off with, I'll email out the links to all this stuff again, so 00:56:05.700 --> 00:56:09.500 don't feel like you have to. 00:56:09.500 --> 00:56:20.100 There's a server called chat.collecticencecommons.org. 00:56:20.100 --> 00:56:29.740 So a thing to know is there's -- you can see Mattermost on the web or you can see it in 00:56:29.740 --> 00:56:31.700 the desktop app. 00:56:31.700 --> 00:56:36.460 I'm not sure that you would see this right away. 00:56:36.460 --> 00:56:44.840 So, if you're in the web, you just go to chat.collectivesensecommons.org, you sign up. 00:56:44.840 --> 00:56:53.280 A thing to know is that if you get asked for a team, you use the team Agora, A-G-O-R-A. 00:56:53.280 --> 00:57:01.280 So let me switch over to what it looks like once you're in. 00:57:01.280 --> 00:57:06.220 It's pretty easy to get set up, you know, get an account, and it's free. 00:57:06.220 --> 00:57:09.140 So the desktop app looks like this. 00:57:09.140 --> 00:57:12.380 The desktop app and the web look exactly the same. 00:57:12.380 --> 00:57:21.500 So let me switch to a decent channel here. 00:57:21.500 --> 00:57:27.320 Where you start off first is a channel called Town Square. 00:57:27.320 --> 00:57:28.820 Over here are all my channels. 00:57:28.820 --> 00:57:32.780 If you're used to Slack, MatterVest is very much like Slack. 00:57:32.780 --> 00:57:35.360 So there's just a few things that are a little bit different, 00:57:35.360 --> 00:57:38.040 but pretty much the same. 00:57:38.040 --> 00:57:41.800 So everybody gets put into a channel called Town Square. 00:57:41.800 --> 00:57:44.640 And then when you start, you'll have very few channels 00:57:44.640 --> 00:57:45.320 over here. 00:57:45.320 --> 00:57:51.620 But you can go find a channel and search 00:57:51.620 --> 00:57:55.120 for different channels here and then join them, basically. 00:57:55.120 --> 00:58:00.680 I don't know. 00:58:00.680 --> 00:58:02.680 Maybe that's enough for now. 00:58:02.680 --> 00:58:05.680 I guess let me show you a few more things. 00:58:05.680 --> 00:58:08.680 There's a thing called threads. 00:58:08.680 --> 00:58:12.000 So if you see a little section like this, 00:58:12.000 --> 00:58:16.520 this means that there's a threaded reply to this message. 00:58:16.520 --> 00:58:19.120 And you click on that and you see over here, 00:58:19.120 --> 00:58:24.400 you can actually change between threaded mode 00:58:24.400 --> 00:58:26.120 and not threaded mode. 00:58:26.120 --> 00:58:29.020 It's called collapse reply threads. 00:58:29.020 --> 00:58:31.320 If I turn this setting off, 00:58:31.320 --> 00:58:37.320 What happens is it shows me all the messages just kind of in a row. 00:58:37.320 --> 00:58:43.320 And so you'll see that this is, you know, this is in reply to that, 00:58:43.320 --> 00:58:45.320 but now you can't see that it's part of a thread. 00:58:45.320 --> 00:58:49.320 You just see all the messages one after another. 00:58:49.320 --> 00:58:54.320 So depending on how you like it, if you wanted to see all the messages 00:58:54.320 --> 00:58:57.320 and not have to worry too much whether or not they're in a thread 00:58:57.320 --> 00:59:00.860 or not find out that they're in a thread, 00:59:00.860 --> 00:59:03.200 turn off collapsed reply threads. 00:59:03.200 --> 00:59:05.340 If you want to see the threading, 00:59:05.340 --> 00:59:09.100 then settings display collapse reply threads on. 00:59:09.100 --> 00:59:14.020 So then the flip side of that is you have to look 00:59:14.020 --> 00:59:19.020 for these little thread markers. 00:59:19.020 --> 00:59:23.300 Let me see if there's a couple of interesting, 00:59:23.300 --> 00:59:26.820 one of the channels that you might want to check out 00:59:26.820 --> 00:59:27.780 is Coffee Shop. 00:59:27.780 --> 00:59:37.140 We don't have a lot of threading. 00:59:37.140 --> 00:59:39.740 Another one is Tools and Technology. 00:59:39.740 --> 00:59:48.300 Any of the channels that have brackets and a word in front 00:59:48.300 --> 00:59:52.300 of them belong to a certain group, 00:59:52.300 --> 00:59:54.060 but you're welcome to join them. 00:59:54.060 --> 00:59:57.240 So OGM, when I was talking about NeoBooks, 00:59:57.240 --> 00:59:58.960 NeoBook is an OGM project. 00:59:58.960 --> 01:00:01.860 And so in the name of the channel, there's that OGM. 01:00:01.860 --> 01:00:04.280 And then it's about NeoBooks. 01:00:04.280 --> 01:00:12.560 And this is a good example of, for a lot of calls, if-- 01:00:12.560 --> 01:00:18.480 sorry, a lot of channels are part of a project 01:00:18.480 --> 01:00:21.440 where you want to have meetings. 01:00:21.440 --> 01:00:24.760 Up at the top here, there's often a Zoom link 01:00:24.760 --> 01:00:25.960 for the weekly meeting. 01:00:25.960 --> 01:00:28.520 This is the time and the Zoom link. 01:00:28.520 --> 01:00:30.320 This is a pretty common thing to do. 01:00:30.320 --> 01:00:33.840 Any questions? 01:00:33.840 --> 01:00:38.320 Sorry, that was kind of a rushed, quick tour. 01:00:38.320 --> 01:00:40.840 - I think it's all right. 01:00:40.840 --> 01:00:42.960 Yeah, as you said, I think it's much like Slack 01:00:42.960 --> 01:00:46.600 and I know how to use Slack at least, so. 01:00:46.600 --> 01:00:49.360 - Yeah, it's very similar to Slack, yeah. 01:00:49.360 --> 01:00:50.200 - Yeah. 01:00:51.240 --> 01:00:54.760 Anybody else? 01:00:54.760 --> 01:00:57.600 No, I don't have a question right now. 01:00:57.600 --> 01:01:02.800 Just to thank you for the session. 01:01:02.800 --> 01:01:03.600 You're welcome. 01:01:03.600 --> 01:01:04.520 Thanks for coming.